Patient Care
|
January 14, 2025

Top Upper Back Pain Treatments, Managements, and Tips

Written By
Dr. Kristin Robinson ND
Medically Reviewed by
Updated On
January 23, 2025

In today’s digital age, upper back pain has become increasingly common, often caused by poor posture, long hours of sitting, and repetitive movements. While this pain can be disruptive, some strategies may help manage it and improve overall well-being.

This guide offers practical tips for addressing upper back pain, including posture adjustments, lifestyle modifications, and techniques to alleviate discomfort.

[signup]

What is Upper Back Pain?

Back pain is a leading cause of emergency medical visits, and upper back pain is no exception. It can disrupt daily activities, but knowing its causes and symptoms can help you manage discomfort more effectively.

Definition and Anatomy

The upper back, or thoracic spine, spans from the neck's base to the rib cage's bottom. It comprises 12 vertebrae (T1 to T12), along with muscles, ligaments, and nerves supporting the neck, shoulders, and torso. These structures work together to maintain posture, allowing movements like twisting, lifting, and reaching.

Surrounding muscles such as the trapezius, rhomboids, and latissimus dorsi help align the upper back and shoulders. They also support the weight of the head and arms, enabling mobility.

Lower back pain is often associated with the lumbar spine, including disc issues or sciatica. Upper back pain, however, is typically caused by muscle strain, poor posture, or tension in the thoracic spine and nearby muscles.

Common Symptoms

Upper back pain can vary in intensity, ranging from mild aches to sharp, localized pain. Recognizing early signs can help prevent the pain from worsening.

Common early symptoms include:

  • Tightness or stiffness in the shoulders, neck, or upper back
  • Mild aches after prolonged sitting or repetitive movements
  • Discomfort that worsens with poor posture or certain activities
  • Reduced mobility, especially after sitting for long periods

Pain severity can progress over time. Mild discomfort may feel like occasional soreness or stiffness. Moderate pain might be persistent and limit movement. Severe pain may be sharp and intense or radiate to the arms or chest. A healthcare professional should evaluate this type of pain, as it could indicate a more serious health concern.

Causes of Upper Back Pain

Understanding the causes of upper back pain can help you take proactive steps to prevent and manage discomfort.

Lifestyle Factors

Poor posture and repetitive strain are common contributors to upper back pain. Sitting for long periods with slouched shoulders or poor posture can strain the muscles and ligaments in the thoracic spine.

Additionally, repetitive activities can also contribute to upper back pain. Lifting heavy objects, performing twisting motions, or overusing certain muscle groups can all lead to fatigue, which can, over time, cause tension and strain in the upper back.

Medical Conditions

Several medical conditions can contribute to upper back pain, including:

  • Herniated Discs: When discs in the thoracic spine bulge or rupture, they can irritate nearby nerves, leading to pain.

  • Arthritis: Joint inflammation in the spine may contribute to stiffness and reduced mobility.

  • Scoliosis: An abnormal curvature of the spine that increases stress on the muscles and ligaments of the upper back.

  • Myofascial Pain Syndrome: This condition involves trigger points, or knots, in the upper back muscles, causing localized pain that may radiate to other body areas.

Psychological Triggers

Stress can contribute to upper back pain by causing muscle tension. When stressed, your body activates the fight-or-flight response, releasing hormones like cortisol that prepare you for action. This often leads to muscle tightening, especially in the neck, shoulders, and upper back. 

This tension can lead to pain, stiffness, and reduced mobility if stress persists. Chronic stress may also intensify the perception of pain. Managing stress may support mental well-being and help reduce physical discomfort.

Diagnosing Upper Back Pain

While most upper back pain is caused by muscle strain or poor posture, certain symptoms may signal a more serious health concern that requires medical attention.

When to See a Doctor

If you experience any of these symptoms, consulting with a healthcare provider for further evaluation may be important.

  • Severe or persistent pain that doesn’t improve with rest or typical home remedies.
  • Weakness, numbness, or tingling in the arms or legs may suggest nerve involvement.
  • Pain radiating to the chest, especially if sudden or intense, could be related to heart concerns.
  • Unexplained weight loss, fever, or difficulty breathing may point to an infection or other serious conditions.

Diagnostic Techniques

To determine the root cause of upper back pain, healthcare providers typically begin with a physical exam, assessing your posture, range of motion, and strength. They may also ask about your symptoms, lifestyle, and any recent activities to better understand the source of the pain.

Depending on the findings, imaging tests such as X-rays, MRIs, or CT scans may be recommended. These tests provide detailed images of the spine's bones, discs, and soft tissues and can reveal conditions like herniated discs, arthritis, or other structural issues.

Treatment Options for Upper Back Pain

There are several approaches to managing upper back pain, from simple at-home remedies to more specialized medical interventions. 

At-Home Remedies

Many individuals experience relief from upper back pain with simple, non-invasive treatments that can be done at home. Incorporating these strategies into your daily routine may help reduce discomfort, improve flexibility, and support overall back health. Always consult a healthcare provider before beginning any treatment to ensure it is appropriate for your condition.

Stretching

Gentle targeted stretches for the thoracic spine, shoulders, and neck can help improve posture, ease muscle strain, and promote relaxation. Regular stretching, especially after long periods of sitting or repetitive movements, helps keep muscles limber and can reduce the risk of chronic pain.

Heat and Cold Therapy 

Alternating between heat and cold can help manage upper back discomfort. Cold therapy may reduce inflammation and numb pain, while heat can help relax muscles, increase blood flow, and improve flexibility. 

Medical Interventions

If pain persists or becomes severe, medical interventions may be necessary.

Physical Therapy and Medications 

Physical therapy focuses on strengthening muscles, improving posture, and restoring movement. A physical therapist will guide you through customized exercises for your specific needs. Medications, such as nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) or muscle relaxants, can help manage pain and inflammation, particularly during flare-ups.

Surgical Options 

Surgery is typically considered for severe cases where other treatments are ineffective. It may be recommended for conditions like herniated discs or spinal stenosis.

Alternative Therapies

For a more holistic approach, alternative therapies can enhance the benefits of traditional treatments.

Acupuncture 

Acupuncture involves inserting fine needles into specific points on the body to support healing. Research indicates that acupuncture may help support the management of pain and discomfort.

Chiropractic Care

Chiropractic care may help support alignment and reduce muscle and joint tension. Studies suggest that spinal manipulative therapy (SMT) may be as effective as other treatments, such as physical therapy or standard medical care, for managing non-specific back pain.

Cognitive Behavior Techniques 

Cognitive Behavioral Techniques (CBT) can help manage upper back pain, particularly when stress or emotional factors are involved. CBT focuses on changing negative thought patterns and teaching healthier coping strategies to reduce the perception of pain. By addressing anxiety and promoting relaxation, CBT may help reduce muscle tension and prevent chronic discomfort.

Preventing Upper Back Pain

Prevention plays a significant role in reducing the likelihood of developing upper back pain. Simple adjustments to posture, activity levels, and stress management can help.

Postural Awareness

Maintaining good posture throughout daily activities may help reduce strain on the upper back. Whether sitting at a desk, driving, or standing, being mindful of your posture helps reduce strain on the muscles and ligaments in the upper back.

Ergonomic Adjustments

Making small changes to your workstation setup can reduce strain on the upper back and improve posture. Consider the following tips for creating a more supportive workspace:

  • Use a chair with lower back support. Ensure your feet are flat on the floor and your knees are at a 90-degree angle.

  • When typing, position your desk so that your elbows are bent at a 90-degree angle. Your monitor should be at eye level to avoid neck strain.

  • Keep your monitor 20-30 inches from your eyes, with the top of the screen at or just below eye level. This helps prevent leaning forward.

  • Stand, stretch, and move around every 30-60 minutes to reduce prolonged sitting strain.

  • Place your keyboard and mouse at a height where your arms remain relaxed at a 90-degree angle.

  • If your chair is too high, use a footrest to ensure your feet remain flat on the ground. This can help reduce unnecessary muscle tension.

Exercises to Strengthen Back Muscles

Strengthening the muscles that support the upper back may help maintain good posture and reduce discomfort. Targeted exercises, such as shoulder blade squeezes, can enhance muscle strength and endurance, which help stabilize the thoracic spine. Regular strength training also helps prevent postural imbalances that can contribute to discomfort.

Lifestyle Changes

Adopting a balanced lifestyle with regular physical activity and effective stress management is key to overall well-being and supporting back health.

Balancing Work and Physical Activity

Adding movement to your daily routine can help reduce strain on your upper back. Simple activities like walking your dog or stretching on a yoga mat can keep muscles flexible and prevent stiffness. Placing your phone or water bottle across the room can also encourage you to get up more often, creating more opportunities for movement throughout the day.

Mind-Body Techniques

Yoga and meditation may help reduce muscle tension and improve posture. Yoga, focusing on stretching and strengthening, helps increase flexibility and balance, while meditation can promote relaxation and stress reduction. Studies suggest that mind-body therapies, including Tai Chi, yoga, Qigong, meditation, and breathwork, can significantly reduce chronic pain and improve quality of life.

Stay Hydrated

Proper hydration is key to muscle function and overall health. Drinking enough water helps muscles stay flexible, reducing stiffness and strain in the upper back. When you're dehydrated, muscles can become tense and prone to cramps. Maintaining a balance of electrolytes, essential for muscle function, can further support mobility throughout the day.

Fueling Your Body for Wellness

A balanced diet rich in fruits, vegetables, lean proteins, and healthy fats may support a healthy inflammatory response. Omega-3 foods, like fish, nuts, and seeds, may promote joint and muscle function. Herbs and spices such as turmeric and ginger may help support overall wellness.

[signup]

Key Takeaways

  • Upper back pain can result from poor posture, muscle strain, or medical conditions such as herniated discs or arthritis.
  • A comprehensive approach may help address upper back pain. Treatment options may include at-home remedies, physical therapy, medications, or surgery in more severe cases. Alternative therapies such as acupuncture, chiropractic care, or CBT can offer additional support.
  • Regular physical activity, mind-body techniques, and a balanced diet can help reduce the risk of future discomfort and promote long-term back health.
  • Consider incorporating the tips and strategies in this guide to support and maintain your back health.
  • If pain persists or worsens, it’s important to consult a healthcare provider for personalized treatment and guidance.
The information in this article is designed for educational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for informed medical advice or care. This information should not be used to diagnose or treat any health problems or illnesses without consulting a doctor. Consult with a health care practitioner before relying on any information in this article or on this website.

Learn more

No items found.

Lab Tests in This Article

No lab tests!

ACA Editorial Advisory Board. (2024). Maintaining Good Posture. Www.acatoday.org. https://www.acatoday.org/patients/posture/

Achuff, J. (2024, March 20). The Gentle Power of Tai Chi: A Promising Approach to Blood Pressure Management. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/the-gentle-power-of-tai-chi-a-promising-approach-to-blood-pressure-management

Bryant, A. (2024a, September 24). Rheumatoid Arthritis vs. Osteoarthritis: Key Differences Explained. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/rheumatoid-arthritis-vs-osteoarthritis-key-differences-explained

Bryant, A. (2024b, October 17). Walking with Ankle Weights – Benefits, Risks, and Best Practices. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/walking-with-ankle-weights---benefits-risks-and-best-practices

Bryant, A. (2024c, December 6). Anterolisthesis Guide: Symptoms, Grading Scales, & Treatment. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/anterolisthesis-guide-symptoms-grading-scales-treatment

Bryant, A. (2024d, December 23). 6 Ways Ginger May Support Your Wellness. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/6-ways-ginger-may-support-your-wellness

Bryant, A. (2025, January 7). Top Sciatica Stretches: Beginner to Advanced Moves. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/top-sciatica-stretches-beginner-to-advanced-moves

Casiano, V. E., Sarwan, G., Dydyk, A. M., & Varacallo, M. (2022). Back Pain. PubMed; StatPearls Publishing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK538173/#article-18089.s3

Casiano, V. E., Sarwan, G., Dydyk, A. M., & Varacallo, M. (2023). History and Physical: Back Pain . PubMed; StatPearls Publishing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK538173/#article-18089.s5

Casiano, V., & De, N. (2023, December 11). Etiology: Back pain. PubMed; StatPearls Publishing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK538173/

Christie, J. (2023, November 24). Lavender for Anxiety Relief: An Evidence-Based Guide to This Natural Anxiety Treatment Option. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/lavender-for-anxiety-relief-an-evidence-based-guide-to-this-natural-anxiety-treatment-option

Cloyd, J. (2023, October 10). How to Relieve Low Back Pain Naturally: A Functional Medicine Approach. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/how-to-relieve-low-back-pain-naturally-a-functional-medicine-approach

Cloyd, J. (2024a, January 8). The Science of Hydration: How Water Intake Affects Overall Health. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/the-science-of-hydration-how-water-intake-affects-overall-health

Cloyd, J. (2024b, April 15). Eating Out? How to Stick to Your Anti-Inflammatory Diet at Restaurants. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/eating-out-how-to-stick-to-your-anti-inflammatory-diet-at-restaurants

Cloyd, K. (2023, December 14). Role of Omega-3 Index Testing in Inflammation & Cardiovascular Health. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/role-of-omega-3-index-testing-in-inflammation-cardiovascular-health

DePorto, T. (2023, January 5). Signs you have an electrolyte imbalance & how to fix it. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/electrolytes

Diorio, B. (2022, October 25). How to Balance Adrenaline Levels Naturally. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/adrenaline

Diorio, B. (2023, February 21). What is Integrative Medicine Pain Management? Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/what-is-integrative-medicine-pain-management

Gámez-Iruela, J., Aibar-Almazán, A., Afanador-Restrepo, D. F., Castellote-Caballero, Y., Hita-Contreras, F., Carcelén-Fraile, M. del C., & González-Martín, A. M. (2024). Mind–Body Training: A Plausible Strategy against Osteomuscular Chronic Pain—A Systematic Review with Meta-Analysis. Journal of Personalized Medicine, 14(2), 200. https://doi.org/10.3390/jpm14020200

Garrison, K. (2024, April 30). Cortisol and Stress: Exploring the Connection for Better Health. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/cortisol-and-stress-exploring-the-connection-for-better-health

Gevers-Montoro, C., Provencher, B., Descarreaux, M., Ortega de Mues, A., & Piché, M. (2021). Clinical Effectiveness and Efficacy of Chiropractic Spinal Manipulation for Spine Pain. Frontiers in Pain Research, 2(1). https://doi.org/10.3389/fpain.2021.765921

John Hopkins Medicine. (2022). Ice Packs vs. Warm Compresses For Pain. Www.hopkinsmedicine.org. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/ice-packs-vs-warm-compresses-for-pain

Khakham, C. (2023a, March 7). Top Medical Evidence Supporting Curcumin’s Health Benefits. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/top-medical-evidence-supporting-curcumins-health-benefits

Khakham, C. (2023b, April 11). Prolotherapy and Naturopathic Approaches To Pain Management. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/prolotherapy-and-naturopathic-approaches-to-pain-management

Khakham, C. (2023c, October 4). The Future of Physical Therapy: How AI is Transforming Rehabilitation and Injury Prevention. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/the-future-of-physical-therapy-how-ai-is-transforming-rehabilitation-and-injury-prevention

Ma, C. B. (2023). Cognitive behavioral therapy for back pain: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia. Medlineplus.gov. https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000415.htm

Maholy, N. (2023a, February 17). A functional medicine approach to anxiety: Testing, nutrition, & supplements. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/a-functional-medicine-approach-to-anxiety

Maholy, N. (2023b, May 5). Top Functional Medicine Labs Commonly Used in Chiropractic Pain Management. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/top-functional-medicine-labs-commonly-used-in-chiropractic-pain-management

Mayo Clinic. (2018a). Back pain: Symptom When to see a doctor. Mayo Clinic. https://www.mayoclinic.org/symptoms/back-pain/basics/when-to-see-doctor/sym-20050878

Mayo Clinic. (2018b). Herniated disk - Symptoms and causes. Mayo Clinic. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/herniated-disk/symptoms-causes/syc-20354095

Mayo Clinic. (2021). Back surgery: When is it a good idea? - Mayo Clinic. Mayoclinic.org. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/back-pain/in-depth/back-surgery/art-20048274?p=1

Mayo Clinic. (2023a). Scoliosis - Symptoms and causes. Mayo Clinic. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/scoliosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20350716

Mayo Clinic. (2023b, May 25). Office ergonomics: Your how-to guide. Mayo Clinic. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/adult-health/in-depth/office-ergonomics/art-20046169

Mayo Clinic. (2023c, August 15). Back exercises in 15 minutes a day. Mayo Clinic. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/adult-health/in-depth/back-pain/art-20546859

Mayo Clinic. (2024). Myofascial pain syndrome - Symptoms and causes. Mayo Clinic. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/myofascial-pain-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20375444

MedlinePlus. (2015). Taking care of your back at home: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia. Medlineplus.gov. https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002119.htm

MedlinePlus. (2018). Medicines for back pain: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia. Medlineplus.gov. https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/007486.htm

Nielsen, A., Dusek, J., Taylor-Swanson, L., & Tick, H. (2022). Acupuncture therapy as an Evidence-Based Nonpharmacologic Strategy for Comprehensive Acute Pain Care: the Academic Consortium Pain Task Force White Paper Update. Pain Medicine, 23(9). https://doi.org/10.1093/pm/pnac056

NIH. (2022, September). Spinal Manipulation: What You Need to Know. NCCIH. https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/spinal-manipulation-what-you-need-to-know

Preston, J. (2023, March 8). 5 Ways That Stress Affects Women’s Health. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/how-stress-affects-womens-health

Restivo, J. (2024, February 6). Effective exercises for building a strong back. Harvard Health. https://www.health.harvard.edu/exercise-and-fitness/effective-exercises-for-building-a-strong-back

Robinson, K. (2024, September 11). Muscle Cramps in Hands: Diagnosis, Treatment, and Prevention. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/muscle-cramps-in-hands-diagnosis-treatment-and-prevention

Sala-Climent, M., López de Coca, T., Guerrero, M. D., Muñoz, F. J., López-Ruíz, M. A., Moreno, L., Alacreu, M., & Dea-Ayuela, M. A. (2023). The effect of an anti-inflammatory diet on chronic pain: a pilot study. Frontiers in Nutrition, 10, 1205526. https://doi.org/10.3389/fnut.2023.1205526

Stanford, J. (2024, June 20). NSAIDs Fact Sheet: Uses, Benefits, Risks, and More. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/nsaids-fact-sheet

Teeter, L. A. (2023, April 3). Mental health benefits of yoga and meditation. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/mental-health-benefits-of-yoga-and-meditation

Thoracic Spine: What It Is, Function & Anatomy. (2023, August 9). Cleveland Clinic. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/body/22460-thoracic-spine#overview

Upper Back Pain: What it is, Causes, How it Feels & Treatment. (2022a, May 2). Cleveland Clinic. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/symptoms/22866-upper-back-pain#overview

Upper Back Pain: What it is, Causes, How it Feels & Treatment. (2022b, May 2). Cleveland Clinic. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/symptoms/22866-upper-back-pain#possible-causes

Upper Back Pain: What it is, Causes, How it Feels & Treatment. (2022c, May 2). Cleveland Clinic. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/symptoms/22866-upper-back-pain#care-and-treatment

Waxenbaum, J. A., Reddy, V., & Futterman, B. (2023, August). Anatomy, Back, Thoracic Vertebrae. Nih.gov; StatPearls Publishing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK459153/#_article-32138_s6_

Weinberg, J. (2022, July 26). 5 Things You Can Do To Find Relief For Arthritis. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/a-functional-medicine-approach-to-osteoarthritis

Yoshimura, H. (2023a, April 11). Using Acupuncture for Chronic Pain Management. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/using-acupuncture-for-chronic-pain-management

Yoshimura, H. (2023b, October 3). Digging Deeper: How Root Cause Medicine Addresses Chronic Health Issues. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/digging-deeper-how-root-cause-medicine-addresses-chronic-health-issues

Yoshimura, H. (2023c, November 7). The remarkable power of exercise on our health: A comprehensive overview. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/the-remarkable-power-of-exercise-on-our-health-a-comprehensive-overview

Yoshimura, H. (2023d, December 5). Harnessing the power of mind-body techniques for chronic pain management. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/harnessing-the-power-of-mind-body-techniques-for-chronic-pain-management

Yoshimura, H. (2023e, December 18). Exploring the Connection Between Chronic Pain and Emotional Wellbeing in Functional Medicine. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/exploring-the-connection-between-chronic-pain-and-emotional-wellbeing-in-functional-medicine

Yoshimura, H. (2023f, December 26). Breathing Techniques and Lung Health: A Functional Medicine Approach. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/breathing-techniques-and-lung-health-a-functional-medicine-approach

Yoshimura, H. (2023g, December 27). Epigenetics and Disease Prevention: Harnessing Lifestyle Changes in Clinical Practice. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/epigenetics-and-disease-prevention-harnessing-lifestyle-changes-in-clinical-practice

Yoshimura, H. (2024, April 8). Evidence-Based Review: The Role of Anti-Inflammatory Foods. Rupa Health. https://www.rupahealth.com/post/evidence-based-review-the-role-of-anti-inflammatory-foods

Order from 30+ labs in 20 seconds (DUTCH, Mosaic, Genova & More!)
We make ordering quick and painless — and best of all, it's free for practitioners.

Latest Articles

View more on Patient Care
Subscribe to the magazine for expert-written articles straight to your inbox
Join the thousands of savvy readers who get root cause medicine articles written by doctors in their inbox every week!
Thanks for subscribing!
Oops! Something went wrong while submitting the form.
Are you a healthcare practitioner?
Thanks for subscribing!
Oops! Something went wrong while submitting the form.
Subscribe to the Magazine for free to keep reading!
Subscribe for free to keep reading, If you are already subscribed, enter your email address to log back in.
Thanks for subscribing!
Oops! Something went wrong while submitting the form.
Are you a healthcare practitioner?
Thanks for subscribing!
Oops! Something went wrong while submitting the form.

Hey practitioners! 👋 Join Dr. Chris Magryta and Dr. Erik Lundquist for a comprehensive 6-week course on evaluating functional medicine labs from two perspectives: adult and pediatric. In this course, you’ll explore the convergence of lab results across different diseases and age groups, understanding how human lab values vary on a continuum influenced by age, genetics, and time. Register Here! Register Here.